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Talk:Galahad v. The Brigade Trial
Will we be granted a second round? 19:18, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :Yes, presumably. --American Eagle 19:20, February 9, 2011 (UTC) The defendants will be represented in court by... Eh, no, not quite... Not just them. I have asked more people to represent us in court, among whom is User:Horton, BoredMatt and Armachedes. Please be so kind not to draw conclusions to early, Your Honor. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 19:41, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :Shouldn't there be a jury of peers in this case. HORTON11 20:00, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :: Only in lovia there isn't , iA large support team Donia, we should all discuss this together.Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.PCP 20:40, February 9, 2011 (UTC) ::: Well, it seems quite undemocratic. You know what we need, a Bill of Rights like they have in Brunant. HORTON11 20:59, February 9, 2011 (UTC) ::::@Ygo: then please provide a list asap to Jefferson. ::::@Justin & Marcus: trial by jury is not democratic, nor is it correcter. See: here. ::::@Justin: we have a bill of rights. 21:38, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :::::Then, we should have more judges. Giving all that power to a single person doen't seem like a good idea. HORTON11 21:49, February 9, 2011 (UTC) ::::::@Dimitri: As soon as possible would be "if I've spoken to everyone and discussed a strategy". It might very well take a week and it would be no more then fair to grant us this time to prepare our case since it is the largest case in Lovian history and came rather... unexpected, to say the least. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 22:12, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :IRL the power of a judge is balanced by several institutional options like appeal. In Lovia we don't have such mechanisms, and I don't think we should out of practical consideration. If you feel treated incorrect, you should talk to the site administration. You can consider them to be your 'grand jury'. 06:50, February 10, 2011 (UTC) ::The defendants have been given five more days to prepare and deliver their first round. I believe this should suffice for anybody. If they feel unjustly treated, they can always ask the Court for more time. The Supreme Court is a human(e) institution. --American Eagle 07:29, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :::I am very very greatful to the court for allowing us some more time to reach out and contact each other. If I still encounter trouble getting in touch with the others after these five extra days have passed I will let you know as soon as possible. I cannot prepare a defense on behalf of others without haven spoken to them and we should of course all be given the chance to respond to the given accussations. Thank you for the extra time. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 10:47, February 10, 2011 (UTC) ::: Protest I would like to prevent this from becoming a political trial. It is not anything personal, but we most consider the fact that Supreme Court Judge Jefferson can hardly be an impartial judge. Of course, there isn't a perfect trias politica yet (at all, to be honest). The constitution is far from perfect when it comes to Lovian judiciary. What I want to make clear is that the law does not give use (the accused) the possibility to claim a new judge due to impartiality. That is the reason for us to ask you kindly to use your common sense. Well, there is evidence? Evidently, Jefferson voted for Galahad's Firearms act (http://nation.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Second_Chamber#049._Firearms_Act). Guess what's the main accusation against The Brigade in this case: violation of that same Firearms act. Our logical conclusion (and I hope yours too) is that Jefferson is too implicated in this case. He does already have an opinion about it. Since January 6 2011, to be precise, far before the beginning of this trial. Apparently it is not an option either to let Donia propose a new Judge, as he is a defendant himself. That is why I would like to ask Congress to discuss this matter. According to the Constitution, it is the Congressmen who have the power to decide anyways. They should propose a new Judge to handle this case. A Judge who is entirely objective. I am begging for your understanding. I hope this will be the solution to prevent another political trial. Let's get Lovia to a higher level. Yours sincerely, Cristian Latin 18:57, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :'He does already have an opinion about it' = WTF? Of course he does! But that is not the same as being impartial. A good judge obviously has an opinion but can put that aside when making a technical judgement. The question is not 'do I like the Brigade' but 'is an organization as the Brigade in violation of the (already voted!!) firearms act'. The latter is a (non-)fact not to be affected by the judge's moral position on the issue. 06:54, February 11, 2011 (UTC) ::Indeed, a judge has to act according to the existing laws and jurisprudentie, but I do believe that Lovia needs a second judge in case the first judge is not fully impartial. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 14:32, February 11, 2011 (UTC) :::True. Having just one judge is not really a wise desicion, since a judge has lots of power. 2 or 3 judges is a good amount to have. HORTON11 15:46, February 11, 2011 (UTC) ::::Seeing as though the case is the largest in Lovian history, with almost thirty people put on trial, it is to big for one judge to handle regardless of the judge's political stance or affiliation. A second judge can only be appointed by the Secretary of Justice and that is me - and I am just as impartial myself, let's face it, I'm on trial here! - so that's out of the question. Maybe it's best to pull a Wilders ? Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 16:04, February 11, 2011 (UTC) :::::If it is a supreme court case, you might need few juges to make the desicion. Sofia Andersen ::::::@All: I'd say, get it done. Congress is your tool, please get writing and propose to change the system . ::::::@Alexa: Please use ~~~~ to sign. 18:50, February 11, 2011 (UTC) :::I think three judges is a fair ammount. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.PCP 02:46, February 12, 2011 (UTC) ::::I support three impartial judges, though their judgement should be the same as one impartial judge. Just a side-remark: I hope none of you dares to equal 'judging' with 'picking sides'. This is a 100% technical case that compares the actions/statutes of the Brigade with the existing legislation. Instead of attacking the judge you'd better start reading the bill and look for a favorable interpretation. 07:59, February 12, 2011 (UTC) :::Well there are certain rights to prevent a political trial, aren't there? Then as far as I'm concerned things could be settled outside of court. However I must ask all parties not to rush things - we're not in a hurry. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 08:44, February 12, 2011 (UTC) ::::I'm not involved in the case. My comments where only to assure the whole impartiality issue isn't used to politicize judges. 08:54, February 12, 2011 (UTC) Trial and error? What the heck is going on here? Another trial or is it a trial dreived from the vert "to try" ? Aesopos 10:25, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :I'm afraid it is an actual trial, though it wont result in actual personal punishments. It is a trial against The Brigade which is believed to be in violation of the recently approved law on gun ownership etc. 12:52, February 16, 2011 (UTC) First round I have just delivered my first round. I call upon the other accused, Mr. Steiner and Mr. Latin, aswell as our lawyers Mr. Abrahams and Mr. Villanova, to deliver theirs individually. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 18:04, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :Great first round! Really well said. HORTON11 18:31, February 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Thank you, Mr. Abrahams. Now I would like you and Marcus, our lawyers, to deliver your first round in our defense. Preferably asap: it has to be done before the 18th but the sooner the better. I am positive the both of you will do fine and you have probably already prepared something. It would be wise for Mr. Steiner to tell his side of the story aswell, maybe you can try to reach him in Carrington? Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 18:34, February 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Well, he hasn't been there lately, but i'll see what I can do. One question, are the Brigade members payed (a regular salary) or are they volunteers. HORTON11 18:38, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :::The members of the Brigade are all volunteers and each and everyone of them has a personal income. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 18:44, February 16, 2011 (UTC) Second round Finally! Boy am I glad with this. Thought this trial would take ages, Your Honor... Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 09:39, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :Oh and what about this lill' sentence: "The Court will take your defense into consideration. We will investigate the evidence and arguments brought forward, and '''will summarize them before starting with the second rounds'"? Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 09:46, March 13, 2011 (UTC) Well then... The Plaintiff just delivered his First Round this morning. As I understand, the Defendent(s), that would include me and my lawyers, are now also entitled to deliver our Final Round. I would like to do so as soon as possible – either today or tomorrow, after which my Lawyers, too, will have their final say in this trial. Then hopefully this mess is over and all of us can once again resume with our daily business. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 14:54, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :We will round of the Plaintiff's Second Round rightaway and will then allow the defendants to speak to the Court. --American Eagle 15:14, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::I will deliver my Second Round soon, Your Honor. I cannot promise to be brief, however, I hope you can understand and accept that. I have quite a few things to say, actually, too many issues to adress to be brief. I am not a man of few words nor have I ever been one. I hope for your understanding. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 15:51, March 15, 2011 (UTC) Don't forget... ...that Lovia is still only a fictional nation. Some things we just ''assume, based on plain and simple logic. I could have asked Mr. Galahad to provide me with a Lovian passport or a Lovian driver's license, and he would have been unable to bring one to Court. Again, some things we JUST ASSUME. I assume, for example, our Supreme Court Judge has a degree in Laws, but can he show me one, issued here in Lovia? And how is this any different then a gun-license as I say we (me and the other accused) have in our possession? Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 15:36, March 16, 2011 (UTC) :The difference is crucial. Citizens are registered, and that would count as sufficient proof of one's citizenship. Hunting licenses could be easily obtained by following the procedure stipulated in the Firearms Act. Nota bene: I do not claim to have a Law Degree. --American Eagle 15:54, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::I still don't get it, though, how can a user account be blocked because of one of his characters has his own militia and no gun license?!? Even if they're also linked by name, the character is still fictional. Why don't you just throw the character in jail for six months without the block of the account? Echocho 17:29, March 16, 2011 (UTC) :::But, the licenses that the Brigade members were already issued before the Firearms Act was even proposed. This sentencing is far too outrageous and unnecessary. I do agree with Echocho that the character and not the user, be banned. HORTON11 20:38, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::::A user is accountable for all actions he/she performs under any name. Though I do feel a block of Donia his account is in this case a too heavy sentence. The argument that his character is responsible is however flawed. Consider this: who can make decisions for the character Donia? If he is just a character, then who can decide upon his vote in Congress? Who is accountable for him? Indeed the answer is clear, it is the user who created it. 06:57, March 17, 2011 (UTC) :::::Seems like censorship to me. And things would become a lot less fun if were only allowed to create fictional people that always act with the boundaries of the fictional law of this fictional country... Echocho 20:30, March 19, 2011 (UTC) ::::::It is possible to create fictional 'criminals', small or little. But you shouldn't make such a figure coincide with 'actual power to transform the general shape of the site' like a MOTC or the PM. There is a difference between a drug dealer bribing local police and president Obama creating a private militia. Also, censure is not implied at all - the site administration only asks compatible content that was created under constructive intentions. Please analyze carefully before making bold statements! 08:10, March 20, 2011 (UTC) :::::::You are right about trying everything to stop characters with "actual power to transform the general shape of the site" to rule the country. But I still believe that should be done by punishing the characters, not their creators. In my opinion, when you punish the 'bad' character and make it impossible for him or her to transform the general shape of the site, you punish the creator sufficiently... Echocho 10:18, March 20, 2011 (UTC) :That is up to the judge to decide and I can't stress enough that how wrong the sentence given may be, we lack any means to contest it. The failure is in the law - applied correctly by the Supreme Court. 06:39, March 21, 2011 (UTC) ::Is a 'jail sentence' code for a block or is it just a fictional sentence (like the threatened fine of 2500 dollars?) --Semyon 20:11, March 21, 2011 (UTC) :::No, Semyon, I wish it was. A sentence of six months incarceration means just that in reality - I will be blocked for for the duration of six months (half a year). Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 20:25, March 21, 2011 (UTC) ::::@Donia: that was the current interpretation up till now, but it might well be another one is possible. 06:29, March 22, 2011 (UTC) :::::Well, it might. After all, Jefferson has not done anything beyond speaking out the verdict - it is yet to be carried out. Ygo "the Brigade" Donia (Lovian PM) 07:14, March 22, 2011 (UTC) :::::: Hmm... carried out by... the Federal Police, surprisingly? Cristian Latin 15:14, March 23, 2011 (UTC) My concern My concern As you all may have well noticed, the Firearms act had, for one or another reason, not been published in the Federal Law. (In know, HRH mentionned his plans for that page). As a matter of fact, I myself added the content on the 27th February myself after my earlier comment http://nation.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Federal_Law&diff=prev&oldid=94943 . It is not up to me to question nor to argue the outcome of the Galahad v. The Bridage Trial, but I do suggest, in future, to make sure the laws are published, just to make things less confusing for all visitors. Maybe the printing office could take care of this Aesopos 10:32, March 22, 2011 (UTC) :For your information: in Lovia laws gain legal power once approved by Congress. We do not need to await a procedure of printing in a 'staatsblad' or whatever. I agree it is confusing, but could in no way affect the outcome (as suggested in the 'it is not up to me'??). 06:42, March 23, 2011 (UTC) ::Why was there a brigade in lovia the first place? I never saw anyone needing protection here. I thought this was meant as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody on some book or movie. 07:01, March 23, 2011 (UTC) :::The people involved obviously didn't treat their project as a parody. Quite the contrary actually, they where convinced of the dire need for such a brigade due to the lack of a state-operated army. 12:09, March 23, 2011 (UTC) Charging Luciano Seeing as how Donia was charged, wouldn't Mr. Luciano have had to be charged (and arrested) as well, seeing as he "has his own personal 'army' of over 80 men to 'protect his interests'. HORTON11 17:15, October 17, 2011 (UTC) :The only info I could found was that he has a bunch of interest-protecting guys that are described as an army. Are they a real army, or more like an army of guards? Do they own weaponry? If so, are they allowed to leave mr. Luciano's property? I agree this is worth looking into, but don't jump too conclusions just yet. 06:00, October 18, 2011 (UTC) ::The main issue here is simple: is Mr. Luciano a user-controlled character or not? Does Mr. Luciano hold any actual power or not? If he is\has neither, then who is going to get charged? When Donia lost this trial the user that created him got punished - me, that is . If Luciano is put on trial, you, Horton, might end up getting banned aswell. Also, we do not have an active judge so that's another thing that has to be dealt with first. The Master's Voice 08:01, October 18, 2011 (UTC)